Decentralized ID Basics, Trends & Adoption: Strategic Insights Sprint for Executives

So welcome everyone to this pre-conference workshop with the title of decentralized id, basics, trends and Adoption, strategic Insights and Sprint for executives. For the next one and a half hours, we will look at this emerging topic where, where there's a lot of things go, where a lot of things are going on. And please let me welcome ya Batos and Dominic Beon who will, I would say run the majority of the workshops. So it's Dominic walking through a slide deck, bringing in her thoughts. Me also going into every now and then, I will also moderate the q and a part.

So for the q and a, we have also the, the app for, for this event. And in the app you also can directly ask questions. You also can raise your hand here, but I think going through the app has the advantage. There's also the, the attendees who are joining in virtually can see the questions as well as everyone who is joining virtually can enter questions into the app. So that we have a lot of questions here. So basically that's it. As I've said, welcome and I hand over to Dominique then to start this session. Perfect. Sounds working. Sounds good.

Thanks for the intro Martin, it's a pleasure to host the session here today over the next, some people joining. So over the next part of the session we'll talk about four different areas.

We'll, starting with theory did one, one just to make sure that we're all on the same page. What is decentralized identity? How does it work? What do we mean with this term? And then talk about five different market trends or drivers for adoption and a framework to help you analyze the market and the different forces that are leading to the adoption of decentralized identity. And then there's a couple of case studies and use cases across different industries that I brought today that we can talk a little bit about to illustrate the widespread potential of decentralized identity.

And then to finish off a five step plan or guide to help you get started and take the first steps with decentralized identity. So let's dive right in. Decentralized identity one-on-one, what is it? How does it work? So it's always good to start with the problem. And one of the biggest problems of the internet is, as we all know, the lack of trust, right?

If, if I'm interacting with someone online and I have no idea who this person, organization, or thing is, and so I can trust it and if I can trust, I cannot transact. And so the reason why this happens is that workarounds became the standard. The internet was built without a native identity layer, which basically meant that organizations that build applications and use cases have to build their own identity silos, their own data silos to us authenticate users.

And that comes with its problems that we all know, horrible ux, high drop of breaks, security, privacy issue, no data control with the user. So the areas era of silence is really dominated by these past big identity paradigm, centralized and federated identity. But there is a way out namely sh sharing, ident sharing trustworthy data with identity wallets. Because if we can move to a user-centric system where identity data is being controlled by identity wallets, we can make sure that organizations and people can bring their own identity, they can share data with ease.

You know, simple one click process users control their data as compliance with new and emerging regulations and much, much less fraud. So it's a very different world that's being enabled by identity wallets.

How, how works in more detail, well, many of you probably already know this concept of a trust triangle. It shows the three most important roles or players in an identity ecosystem. It shows issuers like governments, banks, schools. You can think about it as the data sources of an identity ecosystem who issue credentials to so-called holders, the people in organization managing their identity information with applications.

And then the verifiers on the other end typically product or service providers that require information to provide their products and services like banks and employers and so on.

And so what you can see is that thanks to this new technology called decentralized identity, what we see is this paradigm shift where we're moving from the era of silos that has been dominated by a centralized and federated identity to the era of ecosystems where data is no longer siloed, disconnected, fragmented, and locked into the different databases of different applications, but where data is under the user's control in a wallet and the user can freely share it with anyone else in this identity ecosystem.

So maybe one last thing about decentralized identity From a high level perspective, it is such an important topic simply because identity permeates all industries identities, ubiquitous it's everywhere, touches all aspects of your life. And so the reason why we see this widespread adoption or increasingly fast adoption of decentralized ident identity is simply that we can offer a great set of value propositions to organizations in different verticals or industries, right?

You will be using identity wallets in the public sector to access your e-government services to open your bank account or get a loan. You will use it to sign up for e-commerce or online platforms, verify your age, manage your education and work credentials and your health and insurance credentials. And so at the end of the day, decentralized, that entity allows us to just onboard users much faster. And at a fraction of today's cost, it is compliant and a secure system compliant, especially with new merging identity regulations. And finally, it gives us just more trusted and accurate data.

So why now what we put together here is a set of five different market trends and drivers for the adoption of decentralized identity. So things that we've seen change a lot over the last five to six years and that are coming now together in a perfect storm to support the widespread adoption of decentralized identity. And so these five five trends, and we'll talk about each each one separately, our regulations, identity ecosystems, standards, infrastructure dev tooling and and wallets.

At the end of the day, as you mentioned, all these five trends are coming nicely together at the moment to really boost the adoption and interest in decentralized identity globally. But let's start with regulations. Regulators can make or break market happily in the context of identity. We can see lots of regulators starting working on regulation that are being pushed through parliament. We see public authorities that are procuring solutions for different public sector use cases.

So, so we see a lot of public sector engagement from reg regulators and policy makers. And the important thing here is not only that while regulation establish the legal infrastructure of what we need for decentralized identity, it also so resolves the so, so-called cold start problem.

So if you think about back, what this means is if you think about back about to the trust triangle where we talked about issuers, holders and verifiers, this is really much like a three-sided marketplace where we need to make sure that we have the supply side of the market issuers and wallets so that it makes sense for the demand side of the market, the verifiers.

And so what these regulations do is they resolve this problem of getting the flywheel started and getting the marketplace started by making sure that data sources are opened up, that wallets are used and distributed among the broad, broad set of of users and to force accept acceptance by verifiers as well. And so what you can see is that regulators are really pushing the adoption by making sure that all three sides of this trust triangle are actually moving and doing their job.

Second, identity ecosystems enable trust. They introduce a shared trust and governance framework. So when we talk about identity ecosystems, what we mean are typically two things that are coming together. We're talking about trust registries, which is the technical side of it. You can think of it as the single source of truth that we use to anchor trust for very important information like public keys for example, or organizational information. And then a shared set of rules.

That's the the softer part of the organizational part of the identity ecosystem, which is called the trust and governance framework. And what these two, what these sets of rules do is they do not only allow the governance of the identity ecosystem itself, but it can also establish a standard by which we can make sure that organ certain credentials that are coming from this identity ecosystems can actually be trusted.

So one example of this would be trusted issuer onboarding flows among different identity ecosystems that you can see on the left hand side of the slide when we talk about EBSI, it's a good example of a European identity ecosystem where there's specified trusted issue onboarding processes to make sure that every organization that can issue certain credentials within the EBSI identity ecosystem passed a certain set of checks so that others can be sure to reliably trust the trusted issuer records.

And so as mentioned as the regulations establish the legal infrastructure, the identity ecosystems establish the trust and governance infrastructure of the whole decentralized identity market. Thirdly, importantly, standards. Standards enable interrupt. And since we're talking about decentralized identity, it's clear that data is moving from one system to another. And so having standards that make sure that we can maximize utility of these systems prevent lock-in and have solutions that work across different countries as well as use cases is, is vital.

And so what we're seeing today is the emergence of a broad set of global standards for all the most important building blocks that we're using to build decentralized entity solutions like for cryptography, for for protocols, for credential types. What we're also seeing is that going back to the identity ecosystems that we've just been discussing, there's ecosystem specific flavors and extensions to those global standards to make sure that certain functionality that may not be initially considered by these global standards can also be supported.

But still what we're seeing is that these ecosystem specific flavors are always piggy begging on on open standards that are becoming more prevalent. And so then the final thing about Interrupt that's important to mention is that there's also increasingly work being done to make sure that there are actual plaque fest demonstrations where different solution providers can solution providers can show that their solutions work in tandem, including within Europe, such as within the large scale pilots.

There's a couple of large scale pilots, excuse me, from both EIS two as well as EBSI, but also there's an official interop plaque fest by the European Commission member state on states that's ongoing right now to make sure that parallel to the time that we need for ADAS two to be completely adopted, we can make sure that the market has also time to experiment with those, with those different different standards and technologies to make sure that when we're get, when we get going, we can, we can really use different solutions. Fourth developer infrastructure tooling.

So at the heart of every tech technological revolution are builders, builders meaning people as well as organizations that are building applications and use cases that are solving real world problems that are creating value. And so what we've also been seeing over the last years is an emergence of a very healthy and growing ecosystem of providers of different developer tools and infrastructure that just cut down the complexity and reduced time to market for building solutions incredibly.

And so where it took organizations months if not years to build use cases a couple of years back, you can really now do this in a few weeks. And while open source is also growing the open source movement around decentralized identity, we just see it becoming more easier and frictionless to actually adopt decentralized identity. Which brings me to the final trend and that's wallets.

We can also talk more broadly about applications in a second, but the idea here is that we actually already have an existing wallet infrastructure that is being rolled out and that's the existing wallet infrastructure for field and crypto wallets today. There are apparently something like 3 billion people using payment wa payment wallets already. It should be even 5 billion people by 2026.

So there's an existing tech technical infrastructure and there's learned user behavior on top of that that could make sure that identity wallets as the ones we're talking about in the context of decentralized identity can be rolled out incredibly quickly to a very broad audience. And in fact, this rollout has already started, as most of you probably know, apple and Google already announced identity capabilities coming to their wallets in more than six different states in the US Microsoft also extended their authenticator with digital credential capabilities.

And so it's very clear that the existing wallet infrastructure can just be used to enable identity wallets very quickly. And that brings me to the point, the next point, which is, well, it doesn't actually have to be just wallets. There's actually a broad, broad range of organizations from different industries like telco, banking online platforms that realize that their applications are already the home for a lot of users and where users spend a lot of their time. So it can make sense that these applications can simply be extended to also include identity capabilities.

And so what we see is if we look, look a little bit more broadly and don't un and understand that it's not just wallets that have a very good opportunity of becoming the identity wallets that are being used in the future, but actually any type of application can be, then the fast global adoption can even be speed up more. So if we now put these different different pieces together, we really have three foundational forces that ensure that there's governance trust and legal frameworks in place that just enable this open standard space identity ecosystems.

There's an enablement layer which includes developer tooling and infrastructure as well as the trust registries that we briefly discussed in the context of identity ecosystems. And then there's the value creation layer and and most of the value creation really happens here on top where you have applications built to solve specific business problems, specific use cases. And so these applications are being enabled by the, the, the layers below, but particularly about by the enablement layers so that dev tooling and and the trust strategies.

Yeah, this slide brings it all together. You can see again the five important forces or market drivers that we're seeing that we've discussed.

Regulations enabling the market by resolving the industry's cold start problem identity ecosystems that enable trust, thanks to trust registries, the technical component, the single source of truth as well as the trust and governance frameworks standards which make sure that we have interoperable solutions and that decentralized that entity can actually be decentralized work across different systems, work across different countries, infrastructure and dev tooling to enable builders to build the applications that are then creating the value in the market.

There are still A couple seats over here, so you can just walk over there and grab the remaining seats if you want. Okay, let's talk about, since we're at adoption, let's talk a little bit more about adoption. And I brought some selected case studies with me today. Obviously if there's Q and as later on we can also talk about, you know, other case studies or case studies that you're thinking of.

But I think those were 10 different use cases or organizations in different industries that just illustrate the breadth, the breadth by which decentralized that entity is starting to gain market market share. So the first two case studies that I brought are related to government and banking. So one of them is, and it's the national digital identity platform for Thailand. They're working very closely with the government and with the local banks and their goal really is to make sure that Thai citizens have access to digital identities.

And when they say digital identities, they mean decentralized identity as we've just discussed with issuers, with verifiers especially important also with identity wallets to make sure that citizens within Thailand can use this identity wallets to do different things, to access e government services to make sure that I can also use credentials from the revenue and tax office to access to access banking products, especially in the space of landing.

And so there's a very broad range of use cases that are intersecting between the government and between the banking sector in Thailand that they're currently building solutions for. The other is also a government, which I cannot disclose right now, but probably later this year. And the interesting thing about this government is that it's approach, it has a very holistic approach, meaning that there are use cases being built across different industries in a way that nicely intersect to support larger user journeys.

So many of the use cases that we're seeing there are really related to user onboarding or core identity or travel, things that you need to get into the country, for example, fitting with this. Then a set of education and employment use cases because very often you know, those people that come, will come in your country will also study or or work. And then on top of this also healthcare insurance credentials. So what you see is that this government wants to make sure that people coming to the country can very easily enter and then pursue their professional careers.

And so the interesting thing about this is not just that we have many different use cases across different sectors that are being built out there, but also that there's some production plans for deployment, sorry, production deployment plans for for already next year in in a large scale fashion for for the different use cases then some more government use cases, but slightly different in the sense that the first one is about the German pension insurance and the Austrian Social Security agency.

So those are insurance use cases where public insurance bodies are starting to adopt decentralized identity to make sure that people who are insured or organizations who are insured have a, a better experience with their online platforms or can more easily verified be verified by public authorities.

And so the first use cases that are being built by these organizations who are also by the way part of two other large scale pilots, DC four U and Epsi Vector one working mostly on eps, the other more focusing on e IIDA two, they're building use cases for things like EH, so your insurance card PDA one, so your workers' insurance or foreign workers' insurance and ID wallets as well.

And there's already for demo deployments, there's even interoperable deployments showing how different solution providers have been used to make sure that we can make these use cases from the DFL and the Austrian Social Security agency possible.

Also, some of our partners at Ultra Pass have been working with the Philippine government and they just recently announced that they managed to close a deal with the Philippine government to start by improving the procurement processes, the digital procurement processes of the government, where the whole idea is that the whole experience of user onboarding for organizations for individuals should be just made more easily and more easy and and less painful.

There's lots of processes that can be improved for use onboarding for partner onboarding, for vendor onboarding, combining personal as well as organizational identity. And so this procurement is a first step, a first start, a first set of use cases in the public sector that Ultra Plus is working on with them but, but there's already plans for moving beyond the procurement as well. Then ED education, I also brought two education use cases because education has always been a very strong driver of decentralized identity.

So many of the first use cases that that have been built in the space are always somehow about education. The same was also true in Europe by the way, where EBSI, which was the first, I wanna say real attempt to build something like an identity ecosystem in Europe was initially focused on education use cases. And I think one of the reasons for this is that the universities were just very eager to adopt this, very interested in the technology and what it can do for their students.

And so over the last years there's a great number of universities that have been building use cases to show, to show different, I wanna say types of credentials being used to, to achieve different goals from student mobility and student onboarding to micro-credentials or diplomas or even the accreditation of universities itself by the European Quality Agency.

And so universities are one thing and there's lots of them being early adopters in the EBSI and and other pilots, but then there's also the private sector with cloud and infrastructure providers that are sometimes focused on organizations in the education space. And what we're seeing here is also that cloud provider infrastructure provider identity providers are building now solutions for credentialing and identity wallets specifically to support students as well as education providers.

So here again, cannot name the moment which organization this is, but probably a little bit later this year as they have plans to launch and and MVP, especially in the context of identity provision for students a little bit later this year. Then there's two use cases related to FinTech and Defi, so a little bit more on the financial side and both of them have a European context. So Funding Box is an organization funding platform and that distributes typically grant money from the European Union for example, to startups and research organizations.

And so you can imagine that signing up for funding base BA sorry for funding box is not an easy task. There's lots of forms that have to be filled out, lots of processes that have to been gone through to verify not only the identity of the people behind the company but also the organizational identity of the company that wants to apply for a grant for example.

And so here the idea was born to create what they call the project OnePass, which is a project where we are working with identity verification companies as well as funding box as the funding platform provider to make sure that users can be easily onboarded on identity wallets with their KYC information and organizations with their organizational information to just facilitate the user onboarding process here.

The start is really on the KYC side with people's information, but the KYB side is also, you know, already being thought of as something that's potentially important in the future as well. Finally, which is also an an interesting project because more interesting from a technology perspective, there's a project that we're having with IOTA and also another identity verification company. In that case it's, it's ID now where we've been building user onboarding flows for wallets where users are going through the traditional identity verification.

A wallet is spun up with verifiable credentials in there, sorry identity credentials in there. And then also a sold bound token is minted to a crypto wallet to make sure that we have a proof that we can use for on chain verifiability and to avoid oracles. And this is part of the regulatory sandbox for showing also the impact of decentralized identity on the transfer of funds regulation.

Dominic, there are a couple of questions around use cases and, and maybe while, while we raise the questions like great opportunity, there are a couple of chairs left empty so you can find one here because I think the standing space is also filling up. So use the time while, while I quickly talk and, and walk over there that way around and grab the remaining seats.

So, so the one question is, and you touched one B, two B use case basically most were a bit more consumer citizen et cetera based. Do you have some more samples of B2B use cases and maybe then also copa, maybe you have some, some use cases in that space. That would be the one question to raise around B2B use cases. And I think related to that, there's an interesting question we have from the audience coming in online.

This is, is there any use case where an organizational issued identity could be leveraged compared to the personal identity? For instance, in your role as someone who's an employee, you can do something specific. So any more samples around that which come really more from the B2B space? From you or from you? Well actually, I'm mean the board of identity wallet, which does exactly that business to business wallets.

So a business gets a wallet and pays per wallet to issue these wallets to their employees and then the employees can authenticate and do stuff with other businesses which are partners of the business that issues the wallet. And so that's the business case, purely B2B. And then the idea is that you get this wallet as an employee, now you may leave the company.

So we would say, okay then that wallet is not valid, but then you can keep the wallet 'cause it's been paid for by your employer, but after that you can keep the wallet even if you leave the company and still use it because you can of course load any credentials into it that you think you need. And in this way the company who, who creates the wallet, the wallet provider, they make sure that their footprint of wallets is expanding. So I thought that was a quite clever idea to do the business to business.

And one of my customers that I used to help for their strategic identity strategy, which is a large rail infrastructure company in the Netherlands, they own every hardware that you need to run railways and they have 600 partners, 600 companies that deliver services on the railways or anyway. And they the, these partners need very dynamic access to the infrastructure IT services of this railway company. And so this onboarding is very dynamics if you have 600 business to business partners and sometimes someone is there only for two weeks helping them.

And then so these are other people's employees and I think they could use this wallet as well that that would be a nice use case because if I look at how they do it today with user management for two weeks and then again someone else next time, these, these very dynamic environments with many, many partners that that's I think a killer setting. Yeah, and and I think that that is something we, we probably don't talk enough about what is behind that is the compelling bus business argument. It's not just, it's a complex onboarding offboarding process.

It's something we, we struggle with in identity management. The point behind that is process cost. So we can massively reduce process costs. So when you look at what onboarding, offboarding, all these things cost and process cost in your organizations, then, then we are talking about real money and, and we have really a compelling business case in many of these areas. Just when you look at the cost of processes we can reduce by smarter solutions based on decentralized identity.

Dominic, Yeah, still maybe adding something to to the B2B use cases. So quick question, when you said B2B, you meant organizational identity use cases, right Martin? Yes. Okay. Really B2B use cases and And organizational issues, yeah, stuff et cetera. So a bit more, and I think your couba already brought up a a B2B use case and if there, if you have any more.

Yeah, sure, sure. I mean many of the use cases that we're working on with with our partners are focused on individual's identity. So it doesn't matter when we're talking about travel healthcare, KYC education, employment, it's typically always about an individual's identity.

However, there's obviously a certain set of use cases where even business identities becoming more important today too. So I touched upon this briefly in the context of funding box. Obviously if you're a funding distributor for organizations, you need to verify this organization and as well. And so here I think organizational identity makes a lot of sense as well as, as you mentioned always in every use case where you have complex interactions between multi different parties and you need to make sure that you can trust those different parties.

So things in supply chain for example are also something that we're seeing a lot here with, I wanna say pure organizational identity use cases, But there's a difference between the organization using identities for their employees, which we still call, let's say employee identity and organizational identity, meaning the identity of the legal entity as the organization itself. And I think we must make sure that we everyone gets the right definition of organizational identity.

No, A hundred percent correct. That's exactly what I meant. Yeah.

Okay, great. So then Dominic continue.

Okay, sure. If there's any more questions, feel, feel free to just ask, happy to go through it. Maybe a last set of, I think it's last set of case studies that are brought today, and these are again different. One is from an identity verification company. And here the interesting thing I think is that we're seeing providers of traditional identity solutions starting to adopt decentralized identity as well.

And that includes identity verification providers who, who do identity proofing or providers of background verification in the context of employment or identity access management tools as well. And so I think the interesting things that we're starting to see is that these vendors with the traditional solutions are already seeing identity coming ident, decentralized identity coming and as something that they definitely need to support with their products that can.

So they're now also starting to build decentralized identity enabled products like identity wallets or flows to enable wallet based identity verification. Another interesting project is, is a project from Checked Frazier, the founder of Checked will also be here, you may have seen the logo also on the identity ecosystem slide. The interesting thing about Checked is that, you know, they started out to be the payment payment rails of decentralized identity.

So they wanted to build a, a trust registry, if you will, for a decentralized identity that also enables payments and distribution, value distribution from verifiers to issuers. And so to support your adoption of their trust registry, they started to build a community management tool called Crez Credits X, Y, Z. And the interesting thing about the credit solution is that it's a solution that enables community management by leveraging integrations of decentralized, that entity with the tools people in existing community management, sorry, existing communities use like Discord for example.

So with that tool, and that is live since last year. So I think since roughly a year you have users going through processes where they receive credentials about their identity or their user verification or certain things related to their reusable reputation that they can use today with their identity wallets and interact with the community, be verified to access products, services or channels in different community management tools. So what to do now, we talked about the mock, the basics, the macro trends, some use cases.

And now we decided to also share with you if you want to, if you will, a simple five step guide for how to get started with your journey. And I think Martin already talked a little bit about the first point that we'll also be talking about, which is the, the, the risks as well as the upsides that you have when you go for a decentralized identity. And so we'll be starting with the upsides and risks, then talk about different use cases, how to prioritize them just on a high level.

There's with a simple framework then go down to define business and technology requirements in order to enable the more practical decisions like do I build, buy or use as well as how can I launch, launch and expand. So don't worry if some of the slides contain lists, you can download the deck at the end of the session anyway. So I will probably not just be going through all the bullet points and lists, but just, you know, you will get them later on if you're interested.

So first I think a, I think a very easy way to I talk about opportunities is simply by saying, okay, can I make money with this or can I save money with this? And so on the side of making money, decentralized identity enables us to just generate more revenue by simply improving, having a faster and cheaper user onboarding process.

You know, lower drop off rates mean means potentially more revenue coming in. It also pays into the brand that you want to build because at the end of the day, users just want effortless and trusted experiences. And so that the final point really being the fact that you can have just more accurate and trusted data where there's no typos from users or just no wrongful information provided. If you get information you can be sure that the information is actually correct. So those are all good ways to make sure that you can start to generate more, more money.

But on the safe side, I think one thing that decentralized that entity will definitely be doing is to just drive down the costs of identity for all kinds of use cases to commoditize decentralized identity. There's compliance reasons we briefly talked about ID regulations today, Europe is obviously spearheading the way with the I two regulation. And so compliance is also a huge topic of of why it makes sense to, to use decentralized identity. And then the last point being automation to streamline different business processes.

When we talk about risks, there's also, I wanna say a very similar set of factors or views, which can, which we can take to make, make more sense of the risks that we're having if we don't adopt decentralized identity. The obvious ones being, you know, revenue, brand risks as well as the compliance risks based on the regulations we talked about. Like you had two, but then depending on which type of organization you're building, you're also faced different types of outside risks, right? The risk of losing adopters and users to your competitors.

The risk of disintermediation, disintermediation in, in this user centric identity ecosystems or just the disruption of your business models, which do not make sense anymore in the wallet based identity paradigm. Yeah, So I think one of the things we also should maybe touch on, maybe on another slide, I've walked through the deck but I don't have all the 50 slides in mind. So the one thing I think which is, which is most important to, to, to raise is that decentralized identity does not necessarily break what you have.

So it can, in many, many situations it can be added so to speak. It's just the better registration process, better onboarding process, which adds to what you already have without breaking the backend here you surely can then do a lot of things based on verifiable credentials where you can make better decisions over time. But I think it's very important to keep in mind, and I think this is good that it's not on the list.

So I, I don't see this as a risk of breaking what you have. You can as an opportunity then over time do things much better if you make the full use of decentralized entity. But it fits quite, quite neatly into, into what you already have in many, many cases. And I think this is a very charming thing because when something new comes up, we always have this fear a bit about what does it mean to what we did in the past decade or so, or even longer UBA on a larger scale.

The, I think that that's correct, but the other side of that is that the world becomes more complex. So old systems will never go. We all know that if we have worked in corporates, we all know that legacy, you could never get rid of it and new things and better things are added to it and in the end the jungle becomes bigger. So if you want less identity and more access in that sense it's, it, it might be a very good addition but it doesn't make the world more easy maybe for users Not, not necessary.

Yeah, I dare to say, you know, I I think take, take an example from all this, this login onboarding, et cetera saying, so how many login with Facebook partners do you still see? Not many. So some of the things which are outdated also just disappear. I dare to say so.

So I, I have to hope that that, yes, we always have a hybrid world in between. It's like with the cloud, you know, we had on premise and then the cloud came for since quite a while. And right now most of us are live in a hybrid world and still will take until this, the legacy disappears.

But I, I'm not, not too negative that a lot of things will disappear because other things just will become the new normal and at some point you will say, do I still need this or, or do I still invest in this? Maybe it's just as you say, okay, a few things are there but I don't care much about them anymore. And at some point when you want to do the leverage, the full potential of decentralized entity consuming all the verifiable credentials, that might be the point where you also say, this is the only way to only way forward at a certain point, which needs to be very well thought out.

Especially when you look at consumer and, and customer facing processes. Not to break them in a way which, which are critical, but I think there's a lot of things we can do. Very smart.

So yeah, my, in my head there's always a question, I really like this self-sovereign identity or decentralized or distributed identity and the wallets and it's the best thing we could do, but when will there be a world when we are really, really adopting that as a standard sort of thing. And I think the first time I was speaking on self-sovereign identity, that was 2017 and we are now 2024. And I remember in 22 I was having a workshop for businesses to explain what it is that's two years ago. Today it's all around everywhere. But I think adoption of very fires is one of the critical factors.

'cause I think users like it, they like wallets, but I mean they already use them as we know, but the back office changes and the process changes. And for issuers and verifies, I think that could be sort of inhibiting factor.

Oh wait, wait, is he, I think in have time back to Dominic, we'd also have a couple of questions for later. Yeah, sure. But go ahead.

Okay, perfect. And let's, let's keep on going with the five step guide and talk about the other questions later on.

So yeah, this is just a different way of visualizing it that it looks quite nice. You got simple impact matrix with the different ways of, of thinking about opportunities and risks, right? Revenue risk, operational improvements that you could, that you could go for or that decentralized identity creates opportunities for. Step number two, look at your use cases, identify the use cases that you have and then simply prioritize based on the impact they have on your organization and the ease of implementation.

So in the best case scenario, there's a couple of low hanging fruit use cases that you have that require, you know, are relatively easy to implement, have a high impact, but, but then, you know, basically go for higher impact use cases first. At the end of the day, what this requires you to do is to just make sure that you can bring all the different business units that you have on the same page when it's about decentralized entity to help sit together and look at, okay, what are the different types of user interactions and user flows that we're having? How are we using data?

I think, yeah, there's actually a jack list here as well. So as mentioned after with on the, on the last slide, there's a QR code that you can scan to download the D so don't feel forced to take pictures if you feel like the, the, the lists are interesting, but here you basically have a set of different questions that you can ask yourselves to, to figure out, okay, which use cases make more more sense than others and where, where's the best way to start Once you have your use cases, it's all about defining business and technology requirements.

And so I think there's three different steps or three different approaches that you can, that you can take or that, that you have to take. Number one is really making sure that you understand your use case. What is happening, which types of systems are involved in this use case, how does this use case may relate, may relate to, to other use cases that you wanna build further down the line. So it's all about making sure that you understand the business value and the user journeys that it wanna enable with decentralized identity. Second is the question of roles.

Depending on the types of use cases that you're going for, your organization may take on one or multiple roles within this use case. Maybe the organization is an issuer, maybe it's a verifier, maybe it's also a wallet provider. And so providing different roles or services in one of these different roles of the trust triangle obviously has an impact on the types of requirements that you have to formulate, especially on the technology side.

So one way to think about the technol technology requirements that you have is to think a little bit about, okay, which types of infrastructure requirements does my company have to have data localization or key management requirements? Which types of trust registries do I want to be able to use? Which types of applications, legacy applications they already have.

Going back to the conversation or discussion between the two of you, I think especially in the short term decentralized ident identity is definitely completely complementary to what ever I identity and access management identity verification tools are currently being used. And so look at, you know, where where does the solution need to fit in with, with which other systems does it have to interact?

And then if you just look into the decentralized identity stack itself, I mean there's lots of questions to ask yourselves about which types of cryptography standards or crypto cryptography you want to use, which types of protocols for authentication and credential exchange, which type of credentials. Also in the context of this, how do I wanna enable selective disclosure or minimize data being opened up with sharing, do I need on or off chain capabilities? Do I need on or offline use case support as well?

And so these are just things that will naturally emerge once you go through different use cases that you've been picking and, and and talk to your tech team and figure out what the technical requirements are to support your business use case. Step four, you know the opportunities, you know the use cases, you know your requirements. And now the question is do you build or do you buy or use? And so there's really three different, these three different options that you have, right?

Build applications by infrastructure, meaning that you focus on building the application that solves the use cases and problems that you wanna solve the infrastructure you just buy some somewhere else from a vendor. Second option build applications but own the infrastructure or reuse the infrastructure basically meaning leverage existing open source solutions to be able to own the infrastructure that underpins your application and build the application on top as with option one. And then the third option is build everything from scratch.

And so while every one of these different opportunities or, or approaches has their ups and downsides, I think it's fair to say that you know, building your applications and buying infrastructure is probably the fastest way to get adoption with the least overhead, but comes at a certain cost of dependence obviously. Whereas if you go for the approach where you build applications and you wanna own the infrastructure or use open source software, obviously a little bit bigger investment in terms of time and resources required, however open source is getting better, adoption is becoming easier.

And so this comes at the advantage of more resilience control and flexibility of the stack. And then finally building everything, which is a huge investment with a high risk of failure simply because of the complexity of the technologies that are being involved. And then the question is also always asked of, you know, if there's so many tools out there, closed source as well as open source tools, why should I build everything in house?

And so what we're seeing is that this last approach is, is hardly ever being pursued anymore, but most organizations are really going for this approach where they focus on building the applications, the user interface, the application logic, the workflows. But then when we look at the infrastructure layer, so the layer of SDKs, APIs, we really see folks adopting open source or just buying solutions on the market to to just be quicker and not reinventing the wheel where it's not necessary. Last point, launch and expand.

So really just the most important thing is that you get going to find the first use case, maybe build a small demo pilot again, even with open source tools, you can do this in no time today. Make sure that your developers, your team already get a little bit more familiar with the technology, can start to under understand and think strategically about the impact of decentralized identity for your business. And then just go for long low, low hanging fruits and be be public about it.

Yeah, as mentioned before, here are the QR codes, the left one from your side? Yeah, the left one is for the deck. So you can get the deck there. You can also book a meeting if you want to chat during EIC. I'll be around until Thursday on the right hand side, my LinkedIn. So feel free to connect with me too. I'm looking forward to more questions. So maybe in addition, the deck also will become available for download when you go to the EIC website, the agenda and are locked in. I don't know exactly whether it's already here.

It usually takes a bit after the session, but it'll be become available. And thank you Dominic first for, for all the information provided. And so we already had a bit of a q and a, we had a couple of questions. I have several questions in here in the, the, the live q and a and so, so maybe we walk through these questions first. If you have any questions directly from the audience, you can either enter them into the, the app or then raise your hand. If you raise your hand, please wait until I am there with the microphone.

So if you're sitting in the middle of the room, better use the app because otherwise it'll become triggers to microphone anyway. Ra raise your questions. And so I I think one goes back to the, to organizational identities or a couple of these questions go back to that. So the one is, one thing we don't talk about too much is the requirement for the organization to prove its identity to the individual. So sort of a two-way trust.

So is, and and I think the questions basically what, what are the panels thing? So the one thing is yes, I'm marketing inger, but this is really inger call analysts.

I'm, I'm, I'm working with. So, and and it also, any, any information around that.

Sorry, I didn't quite catch it. Could you just Repeat the last part?

Yeah, so, so, so the one thing is we, we talk a lot, lot about identity. I rephrase it, we talk a lot about identity verification for individuals that are working with an organization. What about the proof of the identity of the organization? So the other party, Well I think that's becoming more important as fraud also rises. So just for that, but the wallets for the European Union, which will be, they are also talking and that's in the law of organizational or legal entity, let's say wallets. And that's one of the options which is made possible by the European AIDA legislation.

And I think there will be different sessions about the lay the legal entity identity foundation. They have been gathering all the Chamber of Commerce entity identities from many companies around the world. And I think these, this is really under estimated the importance of that.

Yeah, especially when you talk about legal entity identity wallets, then I think that could help drive some better understanding of that. And, and I think the Clive, so the global legal Entity identifier foundation is really still flying too much under the radar. They're out for, for for quite a while. So out sort of started in the traditional world in quotas and, and right now shifting into the sort of the world of decentralized identity, very worse to have a look at what they're doing because this isn't super essential element in that.

Dominique, you also want to add something? Yeah, for sure.

I mean, to totally agree that organizational identity is becoming, is becoming more, more important. I think I talked about a couple of the use cases already related to KYB or things like vendor evaluation or supply chain management. So I think, you know, those topics will, will become bigger as, as we're basically also pulling out the consumer facing infrastructure consumers really just the thing that most people are thinking about because that's the thing that concerns themselves.

However, organizational identity, even though it brings in other technical challenges as well that you don't have necessarily with consumer facing wallets is, is then just something that that comes along. And I think maybe also talking about the prevention of fraud as you mentioned.

I mean, at the end of the day, how different identity ecosystems are going about the organization verification is to introduce different onboarding flows. Before I mentioned the trusted issue onboarding, obviously you can have the same as just a trusted organization onboarding within an ecosystem like EBSI, such as that. Every time if I am interacting with someone and being asked to present my credentials, my wallet can verify the organization identity of the verifier, just like the verifier can verify my identity as well.

And yeah, EBSI is one example of where we already have this type of organization verification. Clive, you mentioned is a different one based on a very different set of technologies.

But yeah, I think it's, it's very important work that's being done to just make sure that we can also have this on the organizational level. Yeah. For instance, one of the use cases, whenever, whenever you are founding your, your company, when you are becoming a freelancer, you go to the Chamber of Commerce, then you are f you have your foundation papers ready, but then you want to have a business account with your bank and then you really have to provide a lot of information and you have to prove that you're really a company, not just that you are, yeah.

So you have to prove that you're a legal entity that, and I think that's a lot of KYC for the banks. They have to, to check that. But I think that could also the KYC process for businesses with banks, not just people. I think that that could be some role as well. W which brings me to a thought about, and there's something which I had in mind for a while, but maybe have some, some, some around it as well, which, which is a bit about, let's call it multi, multi wallet use cases.

So there, I think there take this use case, which means there's someone, a person acting on a behalf of a bank for opening the account, which basically means there, there are, there's the, the individual perspective and there's the organizational perspective. And, and I believe we will have scenarios like that where factually the verifiable credentials stem from, from different wallets that have relationships. Any thoughts on that?

Which brings us, by the way then to the next question I have from the audience, which is about where do we stand with interoperability between the different decent identity systems, systems between I would say everything. Yeah. Happy to start. Talk about interop a bit. I think it, i I mentioned it before, one of the three trends that are driving adoption, I mean, standardizing the technologies that you need to do to decentralized entities, a very hard thing. And so obviously interoperability has always been one of the biggest topics. I I think since, since since forever, since day one.

I believe that looking at many standards, we're coming to get to interesting spaces where standards are sufficiently far ahead that we can actually build reliable production systems on them. What's also good, and I briefly mentioned that too, are the factual interop, plaque fests and interop events that are happening. And there you can really see that there's great interest in, in basically everybody who's in, I wanna say all kinds of developer tooling and infrastructure to solutions to work together and show interoperability.

I believe so far it's been clear to everyone that interoperability is the core part of this. And you cannot go around, you cannot just force your solution. And so I think it's just a work in progress. It's something where developer tooling and infrastructure just needs to become better and better to abstract these, I wanna say interrupt and standard problems for the organizations that's building an application or use case. And so I think a lot of more complexity to come, but also more stability for, for a certain set of, of standards that can then be abstracted. Yeah.

And it's not just a, a nice to have, it's a must have because if you read the AIDAS legislation, there are articles stating that wallets need to talk or be interoperable with another wallet. So sort of peer to peer wallet. So personal identity. So I can verify that you are Martin, although I'm not an organization, I have my own platform to authenticate other people against with their wallet. So you get a new, i i, I don't haven't seen exactly what it could be, but peer to peer wallet authentication or verification, and that's one of the use cases.

And so it's prescribed, prescribed in the legislation that wallets should be able to do that. And also data portability as it's men mentioned in the GDPR, that also requires interoperability across these wallets.

And I, I think this portability and and interoperability thing also goes, I would say one level deeper than the wallet because it's at the end of also the, the flow of verifiable credentials from wallet to wallet at the end of the day. So if I, if I want to have data portability, it means I need to have a means to, to let my verifiable credentials flow wherever I want, so to speak in that sense. So it'll be very interesting.

I see, I see a lot, a lot of work being done. I see a lot of evolution, the space as usual, I think it's, it's, it's an emerging space. So there things will evolve like with every, every standards we've seen in the past. It takes a while, but I think we are, we're definitely making progress here and, and there are a lot of things where we already can start using these technologies, implementing this and having a very significant business benefit. Totally agree. Okay. Koba?

Yeah, same. Nothing to add. Okay. So also very interesting question here. I would love to hear about the panelists viewpoints on adoption trends across Americas versus eu.

So yeah, COBA, you, you're very, very EU focused. I'm totally EU focused, correct. Not To say EU biased. Yes. Yeah.

But, but maybe Dominic, you, you may want to comment here. Yeah, sure.

I mean, if we, again, think about the five different trends that we talked about, regulations, identity, ecosystems, standards, developer tooling, infrastructure wallets on, on the regulatory side. In Europe, we, we have IIDA two and, and we're really spearheading with this new type of regulation. And that's one thing. The second thing it's compared to the US you would say a fe a federal type of loss, it's a lot it spends across all of Europe. So let's see how good we get away from, from the problem or potential issue of fragmentation.

But if we do it rather well, or, or I wanna say, okay, then it's, it's this, this very broad also attempt for harmonization across different countries. Whereas in, in the US a lot of the things that we're seeing are happening on a state level where different individual states are making decisions on how fast that essentialized identity adoption should actually work. So I think that's one difference on the regulatory perspective. Yeah. And it's not only the regulatory perspective.

I think we see you're currently really a, a, a great push from, from the EU and, and other parties more from the state side. And, and you, us it's probably also more, more a push by many of also of the large players in the market, et cetera. So at the end of the day, it all goes back to, to interoperability, to my my point. I think we will see it starting in different areas driven by, by different parties, but to make it work on a global basis. And at the end, I, I'm, as I, as a user want to use my wallet globally for different use cases, then interoperability definitely is key here.

That, that's another interesting que a lot of questions coming in. I I like that one. Given that, that about one third of the global population online are under 18, how do you see wallets serving miners? So like incorporating parental consent or recognizing that many do not have access to the ID documents.

They, or at least that level of ID document they will receive when they're, whatever, 16 or 18 or something. It starts, For instance, in schools, I've seen some use cases in the Netherlands where these are, that's not about parental, but about underage people.

They, they're already using it for educational and those are not really anchored, really certified d plums and things, but whenever they have done something, they can put it in a wallet and they can prove to anyone that they did it. So this, this is a specific target for underage children who are, yeah, but I think for banking onboarding, there's also the same because they ring fans, people below the, who have not come of eight yet. So they use their parents' identities to help identify youngsters to give them a bank account.

And that's piggybacking on the identity of the parent, of course, because the parent should also be aware of this. But I've seen various banks do quite crazy things in order to to, to get around this.

So yeah, that could be a use case. Yeah. We we're also working on some interesting use case in that regard related to, especially as you mentioned, miners and how they're represented because that brings up a very interesting technical problem, which also comes up with organizational identity wallets. And that's the question of delegation and mandates.

And it's interesting because it's, it's quite the opposite of what you initially wanted to do with self-sovereign identity being user controlled, but in exactly this case where you have a minor representation obviously that that cannot be, and so that actually is a very interesting technology and implementation problem too. But it, it's something that, you know, I think many people are working on and that that will be solved as well.

And, and I think this also shows there, the more we look at it from, from the real world business cases, use cases, the, the more we learn, okay, this and this, and this is something we need to add to this. Like with every standard at the beginning, you know, look at the standards at the beginning there's a standard and then all the different varis of the standards, the additions to the standards arrive like, like take standards, like, or, or open Id connect. It's not just one thing anymore. It's so much around that. And this the same, the same is happening here.

And, and I think around that, what you said, the delegation, et cetera, there's also the relationships thing. The question of how do you, you handle relationships between wallets, can you use or may you require to have multiple wallets for certain things instead of a sheer delegation. I think there, there's some interesting questions to solve, but it's, it's still an evolution we are in. I think that most of the problems that you engage when you do the classic way of identity and access control, you have used a lot of the same problems occur, but in a more difficult environment technically.

I think that's my observation, like delegation and, Okay, so the next question, so I go a bit through the number of words right now. The questions have in the interest of time. So you touched a bit Dominic, but I think it's, it, it's something we, we may, may repeat and rephrase because it, I think are, are some of the essential parts here.

So the, the first, it's basically it's a set of questions. How, how can an organization really migrate to decentralized identity if they want to use it? And is it only for, for the user identities or how can we cater to other types of ident? So it's a bit redundant to stuff we have covered already, but maybe I'll, we'll pick it up again because I think these are very essential questions for all the ones who are, are considering to start their decentralized identity journey.

Yeah, sure. I mean we're talking and working with organizations and very, and meet them at very different journeys of their stages of exploring decentralized identity. Some know exactly what they need to do strategically and have strategic priorities already built in their organization to make sure that there's teams in place who can build the solutions and that the whole company's on board. And then there's other organizations that, you know, just maybe heard about decentralized identity recently somewhere at an event like this and now try to make sense of it.

And so going back to this five step, five step process, wait, let me pull it up. There we go. I think the most important thing in the beginning is just to have clarity on the business value that you can get from decentralized identity at the end of the, the day. That's the important thing.

If, if the business value makes sense, it makes sense either strategically for your business or because you can save a lot of money in operational environments or because it's important to improve the user experience also to drive revenue. I mean, those are the things that, that you need to understand and then pick the right use cases and basically everything else from there, there's organizations that can help you with as well, right? Including the, the question of, you know, what type of technology selection do you want to do?

And there's checklists and everything, but I think knowing the business value for your, for your company, having a rough idea of how you wanna roll this out over the next year or, or two years or so and then everything else follows. Okay, thank you.

Also, very interesting question here. I like, do you see hope in the big hyperscalers push to decentralized identities such as Microsoft Andra verified ID helping in increase adoption?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, at the end of, I mean the, one of the five trends was about wallets and, and applications as main drivers for value creation. And so I think at the end of the day what we want is to have applications that are already used by lots of people in organizations and for those applications to just be able to leverage decentralized identity and digital credentials and identity wallet.

So I think if you have organizations that already like Microsoft that enable a lot of organizations and enterprises to, to do software, and then I think it's great if they're joining the game as well. And then if you, on the other hand, you have companies like Apple or Samsung or Google that are rolling out identity capabilities within their wallets, for example, already touching hundreds of millions or if not billions of people.

I think that's a, that's a good thing that just speeds up adoption and avoids the complete rip and replace that's often also not necessary as you mentioned in the beginning. Yeah, I think it could help to make users understand the concept change because it's a paradigm switch from the user in the center and all the credentials around the user instead of the silos. But I never hear anyone talking about that. When I look at our government, when they try to make an identity wallet decentralized, they all, they only explain the benefits. It's trustworthy and it's privacy friendly.

And so that's the functions and the effects. But the total, total paradigm switch, if you look below the hood, that's, no one ever explains that. And I think we should do more about that.

And, and that could be done in companies maybe 'cause they have more power to a, a larger, to address larger audiences. So, so I think the most important thing at the end of the day is that we build that all build on the same standards that things are interoperable and then clearly everyone who pushes it helps in adoption because at the end of the day, all of this is about critical mass, about of critical mass of, of sort of verify verifying parties that consume decentralized entity and critical mass of holders that have wallets one or many wallets and, and use that.

So from my perspective, the the point is at the end we need interoperability and critical mass and everyone who contributes to this basically is, is positive from my perspective. Yeah, well I think it's always talked about the citizen and the user and the number of wallets issued, but you need verifiers and issuers. Without issuers you can't have verifiers and companies can have these roles next to each other. They can be issuer of data that others use and at the same time consume data that they're, that's being issued by other companies. And that's the totally new thing.

It's sort of actually it's a one-on-one identity federation sort of setup, which with the user in the center, but it's without issuers and verifiers it won't happen. And the question is what is the incentive for a party to issue the data because it'll give them more liability. Different companies or different verifiers will rely on their data. So there is reliability beyond their control. And I think that could be one of the blocking issues. You need very good agreements about these things and that could be making companies hesitant. Yeah.

But you know, I remember probably at EIC number two or three, we had the same discussions about identity federation. Yes. About bl yes. But it does appear to be a problem if you Yes.

But, but at the end we got it solved. So, so I'm quite positive here. It's not solved, it's still a thing that you have to make agreements about. Yes. But it works in practice. So that's the point for me.

So, so I I'm maybe a bit more positive here than, than you are anyway, next question. And it's probably one, one which goes a bit to me. I'm very curious to know what the panel thinks the impact of digital identity or decentralized identities going to be on the way we set up IGA sort of standard identity governance, administration, provisioning, et cetera for the workforce nowadays. And so maybe, maybe I start here.

I have, I think I've been talking about this for the last two years also at this conference a bit, i I think we should distinguish between a been been a more short term and a midterm impact. The short term impact is basically that we can massively simplify the entire onboarding processes because we, we, we can use information that comes in that it also involves in the HR systems, which makes it a bit more tricky. But basically we can, can simplify onboarding but only for, for the workforce but also for, for our business partners along the supply chain, et cetera.

Based on, on the wallets we have, and this is I think a al already an, an interesting point and, and we, we can then also, as I said, especially for the B2B use cases, do a lot of things I think on the, on the midterm. I, I think even a step further, which then is about what does it mean to, to the way we do authorizations.

So, so if I, if I'm a Martin and I have a, a verifiable credential that says I'm Martin and I'm an employee at co call analyst and I'm a principal analyst and I'm in this project working at this customer, et cetera, and I have a ton of information attributes we could also call it, we can use in a policy-based decision making. So I think what is in that is the potential that finally this concept helps us getting rid of standing entitle standing privileges of static entitlements, which are in some sense the root cause of, of most of the pain we're currently currently experiencing in, in IGA.

So there's a really a huge potential which then requires systems to work with this type of, of, of authorizations beyond the, the traditional approach. But there's a, I think an incredible potential here.

Oh, that's the other, that's not the identification part of the wallet, which would be in the onboarding and KYC employee onboarding use case. Then you identify a person and validate their identity, but then when you give them no authorizations, zero standing rights, but every time they authenticate with their wallet. So that's a different use case than the identification, the authentication. And of course signing is the third one.

Often you have your digital identity because you don't need the identity, you need to do things and these things would be accessing some system or signing something. And the, the letter is I think a very good use case. 'cause signing, I can't count how many use cases I had my personal life for printing a form, filling it out, signing it, then scanning it, and then sending it part for email. I think I would be really happy with that use case. And I think that's private and in-company, the third good use of a wallet if that could happen.

And, and I, I think that the good thing is, you know, when we look at, at this entire session, there's no shortage of really attractive use cases. So it's not that we have a technology and we need to look for, for the use cases to to, to be a bit cynic.

So when, when the, the first blockchain hive was a lot of organizations said, oh, we need to find a use case for blockchain. That's not a problem. We have here, we have the use cases, we have masses of use cases, and yes, we found valid blockchain use cases no out about that.

But this, this in the quest for, for the use case is really not the challenge we have to, to look at when we look, when we talk about decent address identity. So I think we have time for maybe one more question before we then then start to close the penalty. We probably, or unfortunately we won't be able to, to pick up all the questions.

So, so, so maybe following up on what, what I said and, and, and you, Dominic you already touched a bit, but, but maybe this is one of the most important things where we can maybe put a bit more, more, more info around it. This is the simple but tricky to answer question. How would you design a business model around the use cases you mentioned?

Yeah, that's a good question. And I think there's, there's not a single, there's not a single answer because at the end of the day when we're looking at, you know, working with organizations from 15 to 20 different industries, what you're seeing is that different use cases just create value so differently. And so that's one thing. The other thing is the type of organizations or partners we're working with, depending on whether they're built something in house for their own organization or whether they're building a solution that they wanna resell to their existing clients.

And so at the end of the day, I think what, what's really happening is that you will have organizations, especially in the beginning, monetizing their solutions in a very different way. Probably very aligned with how they used to, to do it in the past. But then its identities becoming more and more commoditized. I think the whole pricing will just become more easy and you know, maybe flat rate based or lump sum based. And at the end of the day, you know, there's very different models, depending again on the use cases that you have very different ways of monetizing.

But yeah, over time I think it will be becoming a little bit diff more easy. So, so what I always would, would start looking at is I, I think basically there there are, there are three factors which tend to be very attractive or two depending on how you define. One is drop off and churn rates. So how does it help you to, to reduce drop off and, and churn rates. So people are stopping their onboarding, people not coming back. This is clearly something which is interesting. The other thing, and I touched before is always process cost. So how does it help you in reducing process costs?

Because this is something you can really calculate. This is something which is really something tangible and tangible aspects really happen.

Yes, there's a good, good point around make money, save money. At the end of the day it's looking at these things and I, I probably would have turned the, the safe money around because automation is really the, the most compelling part of that. Compliance with compliance. You don't win much when you want to, to, to argue for a business case. I Think there could be different use cases giving benefits to different parties in the triangle for the issuers, for the value validators and for the user or the holder.

They each have their separate set of benefits and it, and, and many players companies, they could play various roles. They could have in the triangle all three roles also for their employees validating themselves against another company, but also as an issuer because issuing could be easier in different ways. So it depends totally on which roles in the triangle we are talking about. And each of them have their separate best use cases and best benefits to my opinion. Okay. So thank you very much.

So first of all, thank you to all attendees in the room for everyone joining in virtually for asking so many questions. Unfortunately, we weren't able to cover all the questions that came in done lately during the session. I hope we could provide you with some, some valuable information. Thank you very much. In that case, first the, the, the man Dominic for preparing the slides and, and all that information you gave, thank you very much Yaba for all your insights and also the, the great experience you have also from your work around the UDI wallet, which is I think extremely valuable.

So thank you to everyone for being here in this first of the workshops. We are running at ESE. If I have the agenda in mind correctly, we have a coffee break right now and then there's another workshop and then after the after lunch, we'll start with our keynotes. So looking forward to see you in more of the sessions. Enjoy the conference, make the best use of your time, connect with all the other people here and right now, enjoy the break. Thank you.