Thank you very much. I think a round of applause. And then we'll do intros. Thank you. Thanks very much. So the panel today is all about what's happening with the I DDAs regulation, the legislation, what's coming next, and what are governments going to do. So I'll ask everyone to introduce themselves and I, when I say we're in the presence of IDA royalty, I mean that.
So vRAN, would you like to do a quick intro for us?
Yes, of course. Good morning everyone. My name is vRAN. I'm coming from the European Parliament and over the last three years I was working on the, on the new E IIDA proposal on the new digital identity framework. My task was in the parliament to basically prepare the parliament's position vis-a-vis the council and the European Commission, and basically help support the, the political masters in, in their work.
So that's, that's, sure.
Thanks very much. I'm Vicki.
Hi everyone. I'm Vicki Manila, trust services director with ESI Group, an Italian qualified trust service provider with strong background in E IIDA and everything around ever since. And I'm happy to be on stage today with, with this brilliant people. Thank you. Thanks
Vicki. And Rob?
Yes, good morning everyone. I am from the Ministry of Economic Affairs and Climate Policy in the Netherlands. We are responsible for the policy on trust services in the Netherlands. And besides that, our director is responsible for the strategy for digital economy, which also is very important with the iis.
Thanks Rob and Maritz.
Lastly,
Yeah, my name is Mort Berger. I'm from the Chairman, federal Ministry of the Interior and for community. And I'm working in the unit for digital identity and authentication, and I'm responsible for the implementation of the new e IDAs regulation for, on the one hand, the testing and LSP potential, which is the consortium we lead and together with France and for the chairman UDI wallet project.
Thanks, Maritz. So what you have here is, is two government representatives, European Parliament and Vicki, who has been in this space for so long and is particularly involved in the standard side of things as well. So these are the folks who are involved in actually deciding what E-I-D-A-S is and how it's gonna be delivered in different countries. So let's kick off with veran.
First of all, I gave a little bit of a briefing this morning on some of the regulation, but could you just tell us a bit of background as to what has been signed off so far and, and what is the next bit of process to come?
Sure. So I think it goes without saying in recognizing that basically Europe has gone a long way in building a, a respectable digital identity ecosystem. But obviously, you know, it's not enough.
Think the current situation is that only 14 member states have actually notified working national identification scheme and only 60% of EU citizens today actually have an access to a national identification scheme, which is suboptimal result. So also there is, I think on the market today, many issues that pertain to different technical standards implemented in different member states, which obviously is not also good from the aspect of interoperability of the, of the, especially in the context of of, of cross border.
Because ultimately e IIDA is there to, to enable cross border identification and authentication. It's there to, to provide for provision of trust services cross borders. And I think this is like one of the, one of the major, one of the major issues that new AI that is trying to, to solve basically to go from 27 national markets to one European single market for trust services.
Yeah. So obviously in that sense, the new EI does is really there to, I would say the first and foremost create a level playing field for all the market participants, be it the private sector, be it the public sector.
And by its doing that by creating a set of joint specifications, technical standards that everyone needs to comply with in order to, to participate in this market. So I think the, the biggest benefit of Vida is that, is really harmonizing, harmonizing the, the game for everyone. And it's making sure that all the market players are abiding by the same rules and playing by the same rules. This is something that's currently not, not the case. And obviously we also saw during the pandemic that there was a huge boost and demand for, for a trusted and safe identification services.
And I think this is really kind of the moment where I think he demonstrated the value of these, of these tools and technologies in our daily life.
And the fact that you can remotely talk to your doctor, that you can remotely conduct a financial service, that you can do a lot of things remotely that previously were seen as something, you know, happening in the next 10, 20 years. And then basically things have shifted overnight.
Yeah, exactly. And I think just maybe close it off, I know there was a study by, by McKinsey that basically said that, you know, globally speaking the digitalization has been accelerated by seven years. So something that, you know, these processes that are kind of long and painful, first and foremost for companies, they somehow happened overnight. So we see that when there is a push, when there is a need we can act.
Yeah.
And the, the covid certificate was a really good example of how fast that could be done. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
So Vicki, what's still to come then? We've got more regulation legislation. What is it that's happening next? Because this is not, you know, the thing that has been signed is not the first is not the finish, is it?
Yes, you have somewhere to go. Exactly
Why I'm talking from the trust services provisioning perspective.
The, the regulation is setting the framework, but we still need some additional by laws. Let, let's say the implemented the, so-called implementing acts issued by, by the commission that are establishing a, an equal play field for everybody. So in all member states we'll have the same way of applying the regulation for the trust services provisioning.
We, we are waiting those implementing acts. We are waiting for standards, technical standards to adapt the existing services, for instance, the electronic signature or to implement and to establish the new services.
So-called, called electronic attestation of attributes. While the, the, the public sector is evaluating how and when to implement E ds regulation to put it on on the ground. Effectively, we as trust service provider for us, the, the, the, the clock is ticking because we have two years precisely as a transitional period. And in this timeframe we should adapt existing services to the new requirements. We should pass through a recertification program process that is complex and costly and time consuming.
Also, we should take care of our customers that needs to change their existing services in order to to be compliant. So
Two years is not long, is it?
No two years. Think about banking, banking sector. There are a lot of banks already implementing generation of signatures and onboarding of customers based on electronic identification means level of assurance, substantial that will no longer be acceptable for generation of qualified electronic signature. So they need to, to change those processes.
And,
And, and do they know they have to do that yet? They
They are not aware of that, right?
Yeah, yeah. So there's a big education.
Yes, yes, yes. Okay.
Let's, let's come on to Rob and let's get the, the Dutch government's view as to what's coming next for yourselves because you've got, you've got two years as well.
Yes, thank you. In a way we have two years, but in a way we are already starting because basically we're doing two things. First of all, the TRU services and like, well the Olympic Games, the TRU service is not as sexy maybe as the basketball competition and the a hundred meter yard dash.
But we are doing the decathlon and right now we have finished one stage, we have done a research on the market on of TRU services as a consequence of the IDAs revision and to see what necessary steps we should take as a government. One of the other competitions parts of the, the decathlon we are working on is the national leg legislation, which has to be adopted according to the regulation. And there are several more things to come that we have to decide on as a ministry. For instance, the game of the free signatures for citizens. So just
Just explain that a bit more.
What do you mean by free signatures for
Well, in the regulation it is stated that every citizen within Europe can have a qualified electronic signature when onboarding at a wallet. And then there's one of the clauses where member states can take measures in order to limit it to only free use by citizens for non-professional situations. So as a member state we can decide on, oh, which things should we do in order to, to limit that and not having businesses use the free signatures. And that's a very different difficult game Yeah. To win. So that's one of the parts we have to do.
We also, of course trust services an internal market situation where in essence companies can have a share and can play a role. And it'll be interesting to see whether we can maintain that situation and not having others well cheat in, in that part of the decathlon. So those are interesting parts and we have the QX game of course, where team USA or team big tech I should say, and Team Europe still are trying to get on the podium. Yeah. So that is one part.
And the other part is nobody has knows about the Olympic games in your analogy this morning where the sailing competition will be obviously not in Paris, everybody pays attention to Paris. Yeah. But in mar there will be the sailing and we are also in the same analogy focusing on the legal person wallet, which is not having that much attention right now. No. And that's a part of the digital economy
An a legal person wallet. So the terminology can be confusing. Just describe a legal person wallet and, and how it difference from any other wallet.
Yeah.
Well there are the, the concept of legal person wallet is, is not as clear for everybody as you would think. Some people say, well, it's a natural person wallet and you have representation that you can represent the company, but also it can be a different form. For instance, it can be server based where there is no, well nobody has the, the, the, the gen digital phone wallet on his phone. So there is something in the cloud or on the server that contains your attestations that you want to share. So that concept of the legal person wallet well is not as far evolved.
And we are cooperating, for instance, in EWC to work on that.
And that essentially is gonna give businesses a digital identity they can share throughout whatever it is they do. Yep. Which is a huge gap that needs to fill. Exactly. Yep. Fantastic.
And Mari, let's come to you on the, on the German government side of things. Here we are in Germany, fantastic.
Berlin, what's happening with IDAs in Germany and, and particularly how are you gonna engage citizens and tell 'em about
What's happen? So, so, so we have very similar challenges. So the same questions when it comes to the free, free of charge signatures and, and things.
So we are, we have this process, I just presented this process yesterday as an open and participative process to create concept of an IIDA to infrastructure of an ecosystem. And we are discussing different parts of it. So not only the, the wallet or wallets as as one central part, but also like the governance potential like roles in the ecosystem. We try to identify the models, the, like the operating models behind it.
So which part of the ecosystem could be private because maybe there is a market for it and for which parts there is maybe no market because there is no expected profits or where do we want or where are points where we don't want to be a market because out of serenity reasons, for example.
Yeah. So the discussion when it starts, who should do the pit issue to who will issue the eaas, like the public body eaas from the authentic sources. Like is this the responsibility of each authority?
I just said yesterday we have 11,000 municipalities, so should I ask every municipality to issue their at attestations or is there some central body who collects the information from the registries and then issues electronic attestation. So we have to discuss this. So that's the one field.
So within the administration and the wallet thing, and we also have a process on organizational identities because before we talk about legal person's wallet, we have to talk about organizational identities because something like this does not exist in a uniform way in Germany because in Germany you have identities for like companies, for different kind of companies for the different legal persons. So when it comes to, like you, you may know gbr, they don't have any registry where you write down that you have a GBR as a legal person. So that's quite difficult.
And overall we try to engage citizens, civil society, science industry to get like not only their expertise, but also to increase acceptance by transparency, by participation and yeah. To make the whole process understandable.
And do you plan a big citizen engagement program to tell them about the, you know, the benefits of IDA swallows and what's coming up or, you know, do, do you think you'll, it'll wait for two years and then you'll do that? Or will it just happen by osmosis?
It, it depends. So for now we have this process which is public, but not many people like in general public are interested in it. Yeah. 'cause it's quite specific, but still we try to reach out to specific interest groups to tell them what will come and to ask them, okay, what, what's your opinion on it and what do you think about, and this reaches from like representatives from migrant groups when it comes to migrant identities, immigrant identities when it comes to like special interest groups like, or accessibility issues. So these are different folk on special groups we already have.
But for the more general public, I think it's very important not only to have like to make it more popular, but also to educate people because we will not only face adoption issues, but we'll also face issues and questions when it comes to over identification because we make much more possible compared to the status quo and we have this rest accountability that we ensure user consent and that people don't get in this trap of what I call the cookie banner problem. Yeah.
Nowadays, yeah, you have these cookie banners and out of Yeah. Overwhelmed being overwhelmed of it, you just click accept all and I don't want to have this in the IIDA world. So people just share everything because it's easier because they don't want to select what they want to share. So we have to educate people, we have to Yeah.
Strengthen and, and make them, yeah. Do responsible choices. So it's about a lot about empowering and and educating. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's gonna be a huge task to get everyone up to speed about how to use it.
But if it's the, if the user interface is beautiful, they'll just use it anyway because it'll be simple. So that's a big challenge as well.
Vean, coming back to yourself, there's this big jump into this new world of digital wallets and a more decentralized approach. It's very different from I-D-A-S-V one. And that brings in immediate parallels with Apple and Google wallets. And this is something that I get asked lots of questions about and there's some on the q and a coming in, if you've got any questions, by the way, I can see them on here, so make them good and I'll pick 'em.
What, what's the view with Apple and Google big tech and the, the question asked to me this morning was, if Google gets certified as a idac, well is that okay? So what, what's your view and how, how will Europe handle big tech?
Yes, this is one of the, I think most kind of sought, sought questions around the table. People are trying to see how the big tech fits into this narrative, and rightly so.
I think, you know, it's fair to say that one of the kind of horizons death of this proposal was also to, to really curb the power of big platforms in the European Union. You know, while, while they did bring a lot of benefits that I think the European citizens and consumers also, I think in this process we lost out a lot, especially in respect to privacy and protection of our personal data. And I think, you know, this the also one of the attempts of E that is really to curb this kind of wild, wild west of, of data processing without any kind of legal remedies in place.
So I think in that, in that respect, AI does compliments GDPR and really puts it into practice it operationalizes GDPR, this is something that we needed.
I understand that, you know, from the perspective of business GDPR compliance is, is difficult. But at the same time, I just see no other way, but to have such a robust and resilient piece of legislation as GDPR does, that really sets, you know, a high bar for protection of personal data. And this is something that is very much very needed in, in, in, in, in Europe, but also think beyond.
I think also in these discussions, you know, a lot of times you will hear that it's hard to build business around GDPR, but I think the fact that, you know, apple is now positioning itself as a champion of privacy speaks volumes about the impact of GDPR globally. So I think obviously it's resonating beyond, beyond the European borders and companies are taking, I think, strategic business decisions how to, how to position the cells and how to use GDPR to their advantage.
I think they will have to do the same in respect to UIs, stop seeing it as, as an obstacle.
One of the examples was given by, I think it's a small example, but it's a tagging example of free signatures and how this could maybe kind of disrupt to the current market of signatures. Actually this proposal came from the European Parliament. We wanted to give the citizens basically a basic function of signing through the wallet.
Luckily, you know, now it's there. But you know, I think we also need to acknowledge that most of the business when you when it comes to qualified signatures, doesn't come from the consumers, it comes from the businesses. So I think in, in the context of signatures, you know, it's the member states who will have to take on the costs for the provisioning of these free signatures. And just to also give you one example, in Estonia they save around 2% of their annual GDP just by using electronic signatures really.
So if we talk about, you know, where, what is the business model for, for iida, obviously, you know, I think the business model is in, is in increasing efficiencies. It's in, it's in accelerating processes, it's in making things more simpler. So I think also this is kind of where, you know, kind of the e-signatures can fit in and then the wallet as a tool can help facilitate this process.
Very interesting. So I think different to GDPR, which is a bit like, you know, you must comply with limited upsides with EIA, there are many, many upsides aren't there.
We're gonna hear later on today about more of those, but interested in your view, Vicki, on business models for private companies. So as A-Q-T-S-P, you under threat presumably because say these signatures are all free and that's how you get some money at the moment.
So, so how can businesses benefit and what should they be doing do you think?
Well, well the, the, the first threat is not necessarily from not having longer money from generation of signatures, but there is another threat of market fragmentation between trust service providers. Because in one country, the, the member state may decide to have their own infrastructure to generate those signatures through the wallet.
In other, other country, other member, they may decide to have all trust service providers together pushing certificates for signatures. Some other member state may, may decide something different, what is going on with those citizens that already have a signature from one one country and they cannot use it with the wallet in another country. And this will create for sure friction. And this is a, a signal to member state to evaluate very careful this aspect because we'll touch not us as trust service providers, but citizens in, in first place.
And before the IDAs we had European directive on electronic signature and we know how fragmented was the market and the frictions we, we lived before. So we don't want to get back there from a simple thing like having free signatures to citizens.
So there's quite a lot of business model change Yes. Is likely.
Yes, absolutely. And actually let's, let's come to Rob about the business identity piece and, and what that could mean for organizations and, and how would they get to know about it and what sort of benefits could they get? How could they use a legal person identity as it's called?
Yeah, well first of all, I, I think we have in the Netherlands a very good starting point for the wallet for legal persons is like Mo said, you need an identity for company business identity. In the Netherlands we introduced 15 years ago something called ar canning e recognition, which is an identity for legal persons. It has been notified. So it is a notified identity means at a level high within the eu.
And that of course lays the, the, the, the, the floor for building a wallet upon it because you have to, when you onboard on a wallet, you have to identify on a level high with an identity means. So for businesses we could use that. So I think that is one of the things that member states like, like Morris said in Germany, they are looking for is that you have to start somewhere that is identity for businesses.
So I think we have a jumpstart and a lot of companies in the Netherlands already are used to that.
I think 1 million identities for businesses already have been issued in those past 15 years. So that is one thing. And I think the other thing on the con different from the natural person wallet is that with businesses, I think the business case will decide whether they will use it. You you have to, you don't have to make 'em use it. Like what's in it for us, what citizen will ask. And we have done a re or there has been a research in the Netherlands done in, in quite some years ago where the identity for businesses costs like thousands of euros per business every year.
And for instance in the payment industry, it costs billions of euros every year to to have the background check on companies and there the wallet could be a big driver for what we say the digital economy.
So I think when, and that's what we are trying to explain to, for instance the financial industry but also for logistics, the importance the of the wallet it can have on their business. Having a positive business case. I think when we can show them and for instance we do that by participating in the EWC consortium but also trying to continue it in the next round.
Then I think the buy-in for businesses will be much earlier of course when we have wallets for businesses will be much earlier than for natural person. So we are trying to communicate and to, to show them the examples and well having participate also in in those examples.
Yeah,
It is a great way of thinking about it because there's so much focus on citizen id, but there's huge benefits for business ID as well. Audience question has come in thanks Etan. In the audience who has asked, seems that Germany and Netherlands are struggling to solve the same technical challenges. What level of cooperation is there between member states and is there a possibility to have a generic technical solution shared by all sos?
There there are not only talks within the existing context like such as the large scale pilot potential consortium where we work together, for example with Netherlands but also with 18 other states. So we lead the, the work package two, which is the work package looking for the technical interoperability of the national systems. So on at the, at the, at the current stage of the project, we are comparing the requirements and the the the technical like what, what what's, what is technical available in each country and how can we match it so that that's on that side.
We have in LSP potential interoperability event where we invite all relying parties, all potential issuers to get to, to like code together on common solutions and open source. So I think that's the, the best thing to like open up spaces where the interested parties can come together and create added value which everyone can use.
On the other side there are like other types of exchange, especially for example with with the Netherlands, with the French colleagues like with our neighbors where we, we exchange ideas and where we try to like have a common understanding. Yeah.
And at the same time the European Commission is also like active to to, to engage with this process with a reference implementation and and we try to use as much as possible which comes from, from the European Commission. So there are interlinkages but still you really have to mine the specific needs of each national, of each existing national system because we have notified EIT systems, there are specific technical requirements. We have what I said before, the specific registry landscapes. Yeah.
And when it comes to organization organizational identities, you just saw how like the differences are like 50 years of difference. Yeah. So you have to match it somehow with things you can find on national level. So there is a lot of stuff to do.
You have, which which you have to do on yourself as a national government. Yeah.
May maybe, maybe I can add is I dunno whether the the the person who asked question knows, but there is like an EI this expert group which already exists since 2014 and since 2021 I think the cooperation within the EIS expert group where the national representatives like Moritz, I'm also a member of that are working together with the commission in order and what we are working right now on the implementing acts.
We have been very active in the A RF phase in the past years and that that co coordination that we had and will be continuing outside of the EI this expert group on a bilateral or multilateral basis. So I think there's a very good co cooperation between member states going on right now, like Mo said. Yeah.
And the, the large scale pilots are where a lot of that is happening and there's a call for funding for for two or three more I think as well. And a related question coming from the audience. So thanks to Freddy, I dunno who wants to handle this, I'm gonna throw it at you vRAN. Yeah because it's nasty. This one. Why not just one wallet for the eu?
That's a good question. I dunno actually, I think for the most part in the beginning everybody understood that there is in fact going to be one one wallet.
I think maybe that was just a misconception but I know at the initial stages everybody was excited. Everybody was like okay, so it's like one wallet in all the member states and then yeah, you had to explain that actually it's 27 wallets but oh
It could be more couldn't there this each country could have more than
One. Yes. ac ac yeah that's actually correct. Each member state has to provide for at least one wallet, but there is nothing preventing certain member states from having more than one.
I think to go back to the original question, the idea was by, by not introducing a single European wallet is to allow member states to keep using their existing systems so that the European wallet comes on top of the existing, existing national solutions. Because we also have to acknowledge that, you know, certain member states have already quite good working digital identity systems, national identification schemes that have been notified.
And I think all that work would sort of be in vain and it would be re kind of expensive to try to reinvent the wheel by, by joining forces into a single European wallet. I think also technically that would prove to be quite difficult. So the idea was more that yes, each member states continues to keep their existing system in place but it has to be upgraded with the latest requirements that the new e IIDA sets for them. Yeah.
So yeah. So that's gonna be a really interesting as as Maritz said, Germany has a specific way of doing things.
Yes, exactly. Netherlands has a way of doing things
And I think it's also good to give member states a little bit flexibility because obviously, you know, we are 27 member states with our own traditions, cultures, mentalities. So everybody tends to work, do things in their own way. Yeah. So I think it's, it's good not to be too prescriptive around that. Yeah.
Okay. So maybe coming on to Vicki, actually we could go on this, that particular subject a lot and I think there's gonna be more on that during the day. Lots of people asking about Apple and Google as well.
But I think we we're okay on that for the moment. So this is from Yash digital ideas free for citizens, but would it cost businesses to accept them? Is it mandatory for businesses to accept the IDAS wallets or, or signatures or credentials from them?
There are several industries or verticals that are mandated by the
Regulation. It's mandated Okay.
To, to
Accept and which, which verticals are there or which sectors are there? Do you know
Offhand? Financial sector. Yeah.
Utilities, service providers.
Telcos.
Yeah, telcos. They should accept the EUDI wallet identification if this a citizen requests to. Right.
So it could be like one citizen has a wallet Yes. And every bank in the country
He wants
Wants
He wants that, he wants to use that he has this. Right. So the bank should put him in the condition to, to use and to not ask additional measures or to come to a physical branch. Right. To identify himself. So this is mandated.
Yeah,
Let's come on Sue Maritz on that one. Yeah, a bit more. Yeah it's
Just wanted to add I think it's five F or something in the united, so for like the the governments government services. Yeah. If you need to identify, authenticate yourself towards the government service online the, the wallet has to be accepted as one mean when it comes to businesses only if there are legal requirements for like identification only then the business needs to implement it.
If like I have an online shop and I just want to know the identity of the user, I don't have to implement the UDI wallet for identification. But if there is like a legal requirement for example for strong customer authentication, then I have to accept the UDI wallet three years after like the implementing XO around 2028.
Yeah. So there is gonna be pressure on those organizations and three years and a bit to go. It's like
Tomorrow.
Yeah. There's quite, if you think of a big bank, they've gotta put it on their roadmap somewhere and decide to do it and put the money in.
So they need to know it's happening as well.
Just to jump back to this, so also just to clarify all the sectors that have a strong customer authentication requirement, they will need the one, they will be the ones who need to comply.
And what about age verification as well? Would that come into scope? 'cause there's a lot of age verification action happening at the moment, isn't they? It may not be in scope now, but
Yes, it, there is no nothing perspec, there is nothing per se about age verification in the regulation.
But just also to clarify, so it's SEA requirements, they need to comply. There is a carve out for small and medium sized enterprises.
They, they will not need to to provide the customers the option to sign with the European digital identity wallet because it, it was, it was sort of agreed politically that it would be a big cost for them to comp to comply. Yeah. So they're, they're left out. And also the third category are the very large online platforms they wanted to comply. So in the future, if I decide to that I want to log into Facebook with my wallet mid my European wallet, the Facebook will have to provide me with that option. That's
True.
So we're talking about Apple and Google, but all the big tech platforms
Yes, exactly.
Will have to comply that.
Yes, they
Will have to, that's really
Ing. Yeah. So yeah.
Rob, let's come to you.
I think it's very good question and what I hope we can achieve is getting people to see it in different way. Of course there is like an obligation to accept the wallet for authentication online where a strong user authentication is required. But on the other hand, we hope that the underlying party also sees the advantages, the sharing of data we'll have for them. So not only see the wallet as we have, we have to do it and Oh wow, I don't like it. But that they see the, the business opportunities reducing fraud. Yes.
We, we hope that we can contribute in letting organizations see where it can help them and not only see it as a pain in the ass. Right?
Yeah, exactly. It should be a, there should be a carrot as well as a regulatory stick. Yes. Right. Because if you can onboard somebody in two seconds with NIDA wallet versus typing in lots of forms and costing 20 times as much, why wouldn't you do that? Yep. Just the last one then we got two minutes left. Maybe Maritz, I can come to you on this one. Ei a outside Europe, has the German government been thinking about this?
What, what happens when a German citizen goes to the UK or to Canada or Bhutan for
Example? Yeah, like what our strategy towards this point is, is first the first step and then the second step. So at the moment we're really focusing on getting ya IDAs in, in place to getting everything done still. We are in contact with governments outside of Europe. Yes.
So, and they have a very like close look on what's happening, starting with the uk but also like with, with governments and outside of of, of Euro based continent. I think IIDA will have a huge impact because there will be standards set just like the GDPR. So there will be standards and I think we have to look when IIDA is in place, how we can like make wallets be usable across borders of the European Union. Yeah.
And I think this is gonna be a really interesting question as it evolves and there's a question on standards and protocols, which is the next session coming up actually.
But I know there's a huge amount of interest in e IDAs amongst other countries and it's almost like it's kind of setting the gold standard for how this should be done, which is, is really impressive despite the fact there's gonna be lots of challenges implementing it sets the standard. Yeah. Last word vi.
Yeah, I, I would I add something? E IIDA was a trendsetter for trust services provisioning and many countries outside EU implemented the model. I expect to be the same for, for digital identity wallet. And there are already countries outside European Union looking at the model trying to understand how to implement, how to adopt the model and, and I'm sure we'll have surprises very soon. Yeah. Perhaps they will move faster than U European member states.
Yeah, I completely agree. I think watch the largest scale pilots really closely. And if you want to set up the consortium and bid for new funding, then crack on. I think that's happening now, isn't it? So we're at time, the thing is flashing. Yeah. I'd like to say thank you to V and Vicki, Robin Maritz, a round of applause. Thank you for a really informative session.
Thank you.