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Good afternoon, ladies and Tren. Welcome to our Ko, our call webinar lifecycle. Triny how digital documents optimize contract processes, understanding the advantages, challenges of digital document management. The speakers today are me Martin Ko around the CEO O founder and principle Analyst. Copy a call.
And Sean, Eric sets us senior development architect at CCU. This webinar is supported by CCU. Before we start, I just wanna give you some general information and some housekeeping information, and then we will look at the agenda and start with the webinar. Copy. A call is an Analyst Analyst company we're providing enterprise it research, provide service decision support, and networking for it. Professionals through our research services, our advisor services and our event, the topics we cover are information, security, topics, cloud, and transformation.
Plus some other upcoming topics such as for instance, blockchain. If you look at the upcoming events, we have two major events within this year. One is the European identity and cloud conference, which will be held next time in May 23rd, 2016 in Munich for May 10th to 13. And the other event will be the digital finance world to be held in September in Frankfurt, which will then focus on Fintech's digital finance, blockchain, and the latter. Lot of other related topics.
Also, we will do a seminar. How blockchain will influence your business. The seminars plan for March 9th in Paris. It's a joint webinar is Lu peak hoop. And we will talk then about what is blockchain about how will it potentially impact your business? What are the business cases, etcetera? So a number of upcoming events plus also number of webinars we will do within the next few weeks. So have a look at all the upcoming webinars as well. The guidelines for the web webinar itself, you are muted centrally, so you don't have to mute or unmute yourself. We are controlling these features.
We will record the webinar and the podcast recording will be available latest by tomorrow. And that will be a Q and a session. At the end.
You can, the questions time using the questions feature in the good webinar control panel that you usually will find at the right side of your screen. There's an area questions of frog or whatever, depending on the language version there, you can enter questions. Feel free to end the questions during the webinars.
I've said, usually we'll answer the questions at the end aside of the recording, we will also provide the slide X for download. So you also will be able to download slide X after the webinar, the agenda for today, I will talk in the first part about the basics of managing, managing digital documents and the advantages compared to traditional paper-based document processes. And the second part then tr Eric will talk about is company's digital documents, solutions, and special requirements such as per decrease ceiling in detail. So he will go far more into death.
Talk about some use cases, some, some customer examples, etcetera, so far more death than I will deliver more at the higher level at the beginning. The third part will be, as I've mentioned before the Q and a session where we will then answer your questions. So let's start with a simple picture, looking at the very traditional life cycle of a contract. And there are probably many pictures you can draw some more complex because I have some aspects.
Also, I didn't focus on the negotiations part because you have to negotiate anyway, regardless of you do it non-electronic or electronic multiple drafts, there might be a notary in cetera. So there might be more complex processes, but basically what happens is so when we look at a very traditional approach, historically, sometimes even today, we have a contract of a draft it's sent by mail. The other organization reviews, the draft proposes back some changes. This might be happen multiple times, or they sit together. Clearly it might be another option.
Then we don't have to mail in, changes are applied. Then the final version of the contract send out the other organization signs that archives it or records it in some way or another. And then it sent back to the other party for the counter signature. One version is then archive few. The others work have there. So a lot of time consuming process, and we all are sort of used to these paper based processes. And as you all know, these processes are not overly efficient, their time consuming. And the more we do, we are postal mail. The more problematic they are.
So what you today have, and that's, I think we've made some progress on that. This is probably the most common style or life cycle of a contract still the most common, which means we still have sort of the standard feature.
However, we send a contract per email. So the one organization creates a draft, emails it to the other organization. We might even make the edits and direct changes modes at comments and so on. So I'm handling the, the change requests might become a little easier. It goes back. And at some point all the changes are applied and the final version of the draft sent to the other organization, what then happens. And I have to still regularly, even while we also use solutions for electronic signing, what I do is then I sometimes have to print to sign and to scan again.
And then this printed sign and scan again, version goes to the other party back, which again, prints it, signs it and scan it. So what we don't have here is a process which is a little bit more efficient because the document is forward. We are email, but it's still not very efficient and very modern approach. We can also then archive it in an electronic form easier because we might already have scanned that we might have it as an attachment to emails. So it's a little bit easier to handle it, but very, obviously it's not an official way to do it.
If you go a step forward, then how should it look like, yes, we work on this contract based on maybe email or other types of cloud services. So email again. So sending attachments, we are email is not the most modern approach we have still, we might use it with other parties, but there might be other options to do so some sort of shared thoughts, storage, well secured. We use here. And at some point we have these changes of Latin. Even while this, this process looks a little longer than the other ones.
In fact, what we then do is we prepare it for signing, using a solution for that. That might also be something which happens very much automated in large organizations. And once it's prepared, it goes over to the other party, which is informed and then click kind click on a link or whatever, an email and put its own electronic signature on. And depending on what's we signed first, or let's say the common example we signed second goes back.
The other electronic signature is made, and then both parties have their contract with electronic signatures archived and they can still print it if they want to archive it in a paper based firm, but usually we will archive it manually. Typically it also can be automatically archived. So even while this looks a little longer, in fact, this process is far more efficient because all this manual processes are gone, it's done right, completely electronic and done, right. There is, there are not even email attachments sent back and forth via email. So obviously there's room for improvement.
And in these days I think we, we should really move forward and optimize our processes. So when we look at the requirements for doing that, and clearly we need to have a solution which allows us for digital assigning contracts. So we need to have it in which form, however, what we needed. We must be able to manage the user. So we must be able to authenticate it in somewhere or another. And depending on the type of contract, depending on the, the level of assurance we need despite differ. So in some cases we might need a stronger type of solution for, for managing the identities.
It must be at the end, it must be secure enough and we must trust the provider of that solution. So this is clearly a very important part for such a digital designing solution.
There's, there's still trust involved. So it's all handled correctly. Are the users authenticated at the defined level? And so on and last not least solution must, must be in compliance or must comply with the laws in place. So finally it's always about, can we really do it that way? Or are we in conflict with one oral type of law services, legally valid and binding contract? And that's also one of the things we really must look at, but as we all know, there are enough enough solutions and many of them are established to handle this type of requirement. So what are our, our opportunities?
From my perspective, there are three areas. One is security. So we are used to handwritten signatures and to the company stamp on it. But if we are honest, handwritten signatures are not a very secure approach. So we need in fact, something which is more secure. And if you compare digital signature and handwritten signature, if we had strong indication and all the management of signature or authorization to it, so who's allowed to sign what we can get far better here. So obviously there's a strong potential for achieving more security.
In fact, reducing risks and consequence. The second opportunity is that we can reduce the amount manual work and thus potentially can reduce cost. The less we have to do with printing scanning handling paper, the more efficient is finally it's allows us to move towards faster seamless processes, all electronic. And there are a lot of examples where you can have significant process improvements by relying on that type of digital contracts, because you can direct design. You can maybe in some situations.
So that's something where obviously a lot of things going on, even then use other type of information, which you connect to that contract to end up as sort of a smart contract, which that'll talk about us in a minute, which then becomes enforced for instance, when the payment is done, et cetera. So digital contracts allows to optimize processes for all areas, cost performance, and second security. And what we see as the, the next level of evolution here and what we see happening currently.
And I think there's no clear bottle line where you say this is a smart contract and this is not a smart contract, but I think what, what we are really ending up with automatically is an area of smart contracts and fulfillment, not necessarily only in future. And think if you see more and more of that today. So imagine a world where the signature of contract automatically starts fulfillment. So the contract is signed and then business process starts. You sign whatever the contract of your car and everything else starts.
In fact, that's something you do regularly in a more lightweight form when you do e-commerce. So you put in the order and the fulfillment starts, but you can also do it for in areas where we need more contract, more us pick quotas, paperwork up front, some more contract work. Imagine where a world where connected things give you a current status of fulfillment at any time. So you have logistics.
For instance, international logistics are transporting goods from whatever China to Europe, with a lot of handling in between where OT device can provide always current status of where, where you are in that process and where all the contracts can be connected to all these various types of information or where you have access to a property or services that are once the payment is done. So, so the, the lock of the door opens once the payment is done and you're in front of the door based on a contract you have signed.
So you need to sign the contract, you do need to do the payment and everything else works automatically. So there are a lot of opportunities here. And what I really see is it's time to get rid of paper based contracts and make a shift to smart contracts. And to give you more insight on, on how this can be done on. So the various concepts, a number of use cases I hand over to Eric right now, who will show you a number of practical details and examples. Thank you. Okay.
Thank you Martin, for that introduction and, and overview of digital signatures, just want to place sign on the Mac with a couple of slides here. And, and we are working with the electronic entities and we are in the regulated industries, which are mainly banks, insurance, or the companies that are, have to follow the AML, anti LA and the KYC know your customer directives. We have very strong market present in the Nordic. We have offices in Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and also just open in the Netherlands.
So we are now moving out of the Nordex and in 2015, we actually had passed over 50 million transactions. So we are have some big customers and I'll get back to some of these customers in a little while. So looking at digital contracts, as Martin mentioned, he gave some introduction as to why you're using the digital contracts.
And I, I won't go too much on this because you already cover that. I mean, the advantages you want to return the turnaround, you want to speed up the process and that of course saves money. You want to reduce the processing cost on both ends and you want to have more business faster. So these are the incentives for our customers to go into digital contracts, do everything more efficient, do it all digital avoid and, and paper. There are some terms that are being used. I just want to clarify, we talk about electronic signature. We talk about digital signature. We also talk about digital seals.
So an electronic signature is any means of replacing a handwritten signature with an electronic one. So even just signing with your hand on a tablet, creating sort of an ink log on document would be considered an electronic signature.
Well, a digital signature uses cryptography. So that guarantees authentication. It guarantees integrity that the document has been changed and it guarantees non-repudiation. You cannot deny having done that. So a digital signature is often, but not necessarily based on digital certificates and a PKI. Then you have digital seals, which is a digital signature, but this is added by an organization there's normally no human intervention. The seal is added by the organization.
So it's technically very similar to a digital signature, but there is no user authenticating to add the seal as it is for the signature. When you are using electronic signatures, there are several challenges, but I'll touch on two. So one of them is who is signing. You need to identify the person that is signing. And another one is how do you ensure that these signatures can be validated for in the future this long term validation challenge? So if we started looking at who is signing this document, syndicate offers four different product areas.
And in this one, we'll touch on the sign science solution. We also have assure and connect for assurance of user identity and for connecting or logging into sites. And I'll get back to the preserve solution in a little while, but now we're looking at our science solution. And the first example I'm gonna look at is the typical PKI scenario, where there are issued certificates beforehand. The user has registered with an E ID provider, the user. Then when signing the document, the user will then authenticate to get access to the private key.
The private key is then used for actually designing process and identifies the user as the designer of this, there are several ways of handling this private key. And of course, if you're gonna be really secure and really sure that there's no fraud on this, you need to make sure that only user and access to the private key. And in theory, that should be placed on a smart card. So it's only available to the user.
However, we see that in a lot of cases, actually, the ID provider stores, the private keys on behalf of the users for simplicity of this entire structure. So, but in either case, the user will authenticate, provide some sort of credentials, which will give access to the private key. And this is used to sign the document. So you have the document then as proof of this signing, restoring the certificate and sign will typically seal this entire thing afterwards as a proof of this signature.
So you have a signed document, which is sealed by the user as mentioned, this of course requires that the user is already registered. The user already has a certificate, has a private public key pair that he can use for that. What we're seeing that some customers, some banks, you don't necessarily know you're onboarding, you have new customers. So in the next scenario, yeah, as I said, the user certificate is the evidence and it's all about evidence for what happened. The next scenario, the, the use case in this example is an instant loan.
A customer is, or user is in a store and wants to buy a TV or a car or, or something, but doesn't have the money and want to be extended credit for this. The user is not necessarily known beforehand either by the bank or the store. So the identification process takes place there. And then this can be done in several different ways. But this shows one example that we are actually doing where the user, of course, in this case, talks to store employee.
There's a person in store that will talk to the user, typically using a tablet, the will place his handwritten signature on this tablet, which is similar to signing a paper contract. The photo will be taking of this ID paper. And also maybe the user provide a cell phone number and a one time password is sent to this phone. So the user improves possession of this phone. So in this case, the user has provided three different means.
It's the handwritten signature, it's the ID paper, which is valuable by the store employee, at least a certain degree and a one time password, which proves the procession of that specific phone. So in this case, these three pieces of information is the evidence of this usage being who claims to. So this is then placed into design contract to get with the contract. The evidence is in this case, the signature that ink blog, the photo ID, the photo of the, and the phone number.
And again, all this is sealed by Cate. So this provides then a low end simple way for a new user user, which is not known before to side to get credit in this case, or to sign a contract another way of signing also without having a PKI. And of course the, the reason we're focusing on this non PKI is that we see in, in many parts of the world, there is no PK users don't have an electronic identity. They don't have the private public and looking at then other methods of performing the authentication of the user. This example, there's a bank customer who wants to sign contract.
For example, the user is already logged into the bank. And in this case, it will use his bank credentials for authentication. This actual signature is added by, by scat, but the user authenticates back to the user store in the bank using customer federated identity. And this is being stored as the evidence then. So the sign contract contains the actual document, contains the log details, right?
Name, whatever the user used to authenticate. And then this again is sealed by sync providing them proof or this user having signed the document.
So, like I said, the evidence in this case, that's a login details To be to generic on this. We could actually use any kind of method for authentication. It could be a onetime password to a mobile phone. It could be some hardware. So token that the user might have already could be a onetime password, social media, and of course, E ID providers, and typically also combination of their role as we saw in the in-store scenario. And then in the case, we'll collect the evidence, typically a combination of this, and then store that as an evidence of the use of being who he or she claims to be.
And that being part of a signed document. So this can prove that to be a simple way of getting started with digital signatures and again, whatever evidence is, whatever methods the user used to authenticate, that's stored in the document so enough about knowing the user. Another challenge is the long term validation challenge. We need to be able to verify this signature for in the future. Let's say this is contract for a piece of land, which lives in a family for a long time.
We, it's not sufficient to, to be able to validate the contract in, in a couple of weeks, it has to be validated for, into the future. And there's some challenges to be able to do that. We using the sign sign together with sign preserve to, to achieve this. So one challenge is to get that validation data. For example, in the PKI scenario, we want to make sure that the certificate is valid. It's not revoked. The user is still a legal user, and this can be done either by checking a revocation list or using O C S P problem is that in, in years from now, these even services are long gone.
The certificate revocation list that were used at the time of signing are not present, and of course not in the service. So there's no way of, of getting that information, which is very old. So the solution to this is the, the pet standard, the PDF advanced electronic signatures has a profile, which allows for saving all that validation info into design document. So at the time of signing all this information is stored within the signed document and proves that at the time of Simon, this information was valid. So this is then all sealed in the document and cannot be changed.
So when looking back at the document, sometime in the future, you can always go back, you can validate all this information, the cryptographic information to validate that at the time on signing, this was valid. And then of course the, the, when challenge the time, can you trust the dates in the signed document?
Well, if this thing true was done on a PC, if you, you do the signature on your local machine or device, it's very easy to change the clock backwards or forwards to fake the time of the signature. And of course, it's important for validation. We need to know when it was signed, because that's when the revocation O C S P report has a daytime as well. So we need to know the signing time and how can we be sure of the signing time? In our example, the, the daytime is added by SIM cat. So it's done on our service. And of course the end user cannot fake this time being added by the server.
So, you know, that the time is the time added by Syed. And also Syed is soon to be a time service, authority, time stamp authority. So we can add validated timestamps as well on any document, which gives even stronger trust in the daytime Over time, cryptographic algorithms will also be less valued. There will be fine holes that can be exploded, and that makes it possible to forward signatures. We're constantly getting better hardware, better software, and this could high demands on the algorithm. In the key links. We constantly need to add longer key.
So in a few years from now, it will be easily to crack the algorithms and the key links we have today. So this is all about math and the machines are getting better. People are getting smarter, the algorithms are getting smarter. So the only way around this is to periodically reseal the document. Typically every few years, you will need to go back and add a new layer of security around the document to ensure that at that time we validated and everything was okay, and then each layer will then use typically stronger algorithm, stronger keys, to be able to do this validation.
That means when doing this, you will have many layers of security around the original documents, and you can always go backwards and validate each layer and know it was okay. And of course, there's also challenge with the file format and visualization. There are a lot of specialized file formats. We'll know that we'll receive some files of some unknown type that we can even open. There are also file formats that we cannot open anymore. That with way somewhere, you may even remember display right and probe that we used, and we have the C D and coding.
There are also national specialized formats for signatures. Like, you know, we have the sad deal. And then if you react, this will go away as well. So that's one part. And also the visual appearance must be preserved. The visual appearance could be important for a contract the way the contract looks. We have to ensure that when I open a document on a different device in many years from now that it looks the same, and we all know that if try to open all documents, they may not look the same.
Fortunately, we have a PDF standard that comes to our rescue, and there's something called PDF a where the purpose of the PDF a is to ensure that this can be viewed on any machine. And also it's intended for long term preservation of documents with, or without signatures PDF DFA does not demand the signatures. It can be used for any document. So if you want to make sure a document looks the same, also in the future PDF, DFA is the answer. And this is then used for archiving PDF a is a PDF document that puts limitations on how you format it. So for example, all font will always be embedded.
So you always know that it will display correctly. According to the font that were original intended, there are different limitations on what kind of attachment you can add, et cetera. So this will ensure this visualization and format, by the way, PDF is an ISO standard. It was originally created Adobe. It's now an ISO standard. So if we take a look, then at the life cycle of the contract, we have something like this. It starts by somebody creating the document. Then I call that in this case, the bank, but that, I mean, could be anybody, some client signs this document.
And then of course there could be any number of signers on, on this contract. You can can go through this at several signers, even the bank itself signs it. And then you need to go into this loop of reselling. So periodically every two to five years, you need to reseal adding another layer of OB of security on the document to make sure it's preserved long in the future. So let's take it some customer cases using digital signatures in the Nordic market, A big one and a popular one is the student loan bank where the purpose is for the students to sign their loan agreements.
And this is now all digital, the students, they get faster processing that they get their money faster, which is important, of course. And it's also more efficient for the loan bank. The loan cost, this uses the public IDs D which bank also D reason bypass. Both of them are public IDs and it produces a parties result file. And of course the advantage of parties is that it can be viewed by any PDF U and by selected PDF U for example, the one from Adobe, you will also verify the signature. So you will see that it's valued.
It hasn't been ed with Another use case is the sent their customer finance. And again, this is about car sales online, again, it's to, for the customer, an easier way to purchase vehicles. And it's all digital, all document processes, all the advantages we saw this, this is being used in all the Nordic countries.
And also, as you see here, there's something called ink sign. That's similar to the first example I showed where you actually add this handwritten signature on the screen.
And we, we see that a lot of customers actually want that often because that's what customers used to as a signature, providing some sort of handwritten movement. And that also shows on the file document, the result here, status or part, depending on, on the case, X is the XML advanced electronic signature or the Intercard again, used to acquire new customers.
And again, motivation was to have a very easy way of onboarding new customers. And also under the compliance, of course, all these bank customers are under the compliance regulations. The Intercard again, uses the to and Danish bank ID slash ID, and also a mobile ID solution, which is solution for two face authentication using a mobile device. The result in this case is the status or the proprietary say, which will go away, but it's still being used there and has been for some years, its finance. This is a B2B solution. And what's different with this solution.
It's addition to the actual symmetry is also a BIS lookup. So it will look up designer to verify certain information from baseload, depending on the scenario. So then not only do you have a signature, you know, who the person is, but you will also then know what kind of role this person has in a given company that it is allowed to sign on behalf of the company, et cetera. This of course is also important in the B2B scenario.
Again, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, public S so that actually concludes my part of the presentation. I I'll just leave up here, the, the life cycle of the contract, just to remind on that where you have the, the bank signing, then you have the client or multiple clients, and then the periodic will be of the contract to make sure it's, it's enabled to, to validate this for in the future. So thank you, Martin. Thank you, Eric, for that presentation on the inside, you provided right now, it's time for the attendees to ask their questions.
As I've said, please enter your questions into the code of webinar control panel and the area questions of hag or whatever language version you're using. We already have to first questions here. So I think one very important question, which is also relevant probably for most of the people is can you say something about a difference between the Nordics and Europe? So rest of Europe, so to speak regarding electronic signatures, I, I would say that, I mean, the Nordics are very far ahead.
In many respects, we have a widespread usage of E S almost everybody has a bank ID or one of the electronic IDs. There's a lot of usage for banks, for tax reports, for insurance it's possible in Norway to, to refinance the loan, not even talking to anybody, you do it all digital. If there's, you know, spouses, both of them just log into their various net banks and do their signatures to the contract and, and all the refunding financing is done. And the same thing with, with changing from one bank to another.
And of course the advantage is that we do have a very good structure with E D providers, but also that we are used to using these digital mechanisms. And as you say, we're also looking at the waste of signing without using the public Eids.
And, and this is the expertise we want to take with us when going out into the European market. Okay. Regarding the use of lightweight signatures, like case, you talked about how will this whole legally, Well, this may sound, you know, that it, it's not good enough for, for a signature, but it's actually equally good or even better than a handwritten signature, because it actually provides integrity of the document. You can change it later, as you could with, with a handwritten document.
And also it's important to remember that very few disputes in contract are about the actual signature disputes are about the content of the contract and that's, you know, a completely different story. So it's very seldom that people say, no, I didn't sign that.
So in, in that sense, we see that they will be good enough. And, and that's also been confirmed by lawyers. So of course you won't really know until you have a, a trial regarding this. And I don't think we've ever seen that yet. Yeah.
So, so what you're saying is people usually come and say, okay, I signed the contract, but I, until agree with my, my part of the contract. And so they already admit that they have signed it and then they started lawsuit.
And so it, it's definitely not about the, the, the, the signature part and the believe in the signature. Okay.
Oh, exactly. I mean, what people go to law, you know, to quote about is, you know, some paragraph, you know, whether they disagree on the meaning or something in the contract. Okay. We have another question here. I think it's a very interesting one. What is the use it such scenario seen from a person that needs to sign a contract? So do they get an email with link that guides to sign to a page for identification signing of the contract? Or how does this work with the particular, I think with the established user interface, Right. Okay.
So there are two ways of doing, and this really depends on the customer case, how you want to do it. So one way is exactly what you said there, you could generate an email with a link. The use will click on the link and go into the signing interface where he will then be presented document, read through it, have an option to possibly upload some more information. And then at the end do the signature. So that's one way of doing it.
So it's, it's initiated by the user receiving an email. The other scenario is that you log into your bank insurance, whatever it might be, and you will be shown a list of documents that are to be signed. And in this case, you will click on, on a link that will again, bring you to exactly the same user interface for signing. So both solutions are possible. Okay. Another question, can you really use Facebook to add a digital signature So funny, huh?
Well, it, it really depends on it's it's about risk. I mean, what's the risk you're taking? How strong signature do you need? Of course you wouldn't use Facebook to sign a big contractor and, you know, not even about the little money, but in some cases it might be enough and you don't really need more than enough. And of course, more important combined with other methods, it might establish degree assurance for the user.
So as, as part of a scenario, yes. And, and again, as I said, it's not often people dispute that they actually did sign it. Okay. Can you say something more about the P a D E F standard? I think this is the last question we currently have here. So if there are more questions yeah. Please end them now. Yeah.
So the, the part is, is the P is for PDF and it's the advanced electronic signature standard. So this is a standard that defines the rules for adding electronic signatures. The advantage of using the parts is that it can be viewed by any PDF reader. So you can have a signature in a document, and it's all contained in this one PDF file. So from the outside, it looks like just a regular PDF file. But if you open it in Adobe reader or other readers that are aware of, of the parties, you will actually be, be shown a panel with the digital signatures.
You can then get a confirmation that this document has not been changed. You get a confirmation of who added the signature and when it was added. So the good part is you don't need any special software to validate this. You can view with, with any reader and validate it with at least the Adobe reader and, and in the future, possibly more. And also it defines rules for adding this long-term validation data. So you can add all this information I talked about, so it will then be able to do for in the future.
And then if you also apply with a PDF, a standard, which puts restrictions on what you can can do. So, you know, it will be valued for in the future.
Okay, perfect. So I think we done for all the questions.
Oh, there's another one I'll trust pick the signed contracts are destroyed by us as an organizations or by the customer, or are you so C cut holding these reason for this is asking how the resealing actually works. So how would it work if someone stores millions of contracts in his own archive and then needs sent them out after two years for resaling At, for reselling, we can use both models.
Again, we, we offer the possibility for customers to archive the documents in our archive. And in that case, we will monitor them and do the resaling automatically. Then we take the responsibility that documents will be Reed when needed. If the customer does not choose to use our archive and instead want to archive the documents themselves, they will also be responsible for triggering the resaling as required. And this is done by our, our preservation products.
Okay, excellent. So, Sean, Eric, thank you very much for your presentation on answering all these questions. Thank you to all the attendees for listening to this call webinar. Hope to have you soon again, as attendees in our upcoming other webinars or at one of our events and talk to you soon again. Thank you. Bye. Okay.
Thank you, Martin. Thank you everybody.
